Finacea Gel (azelaic acid 15%) as a Rosacea Treatment

Finacea is a topical rosacea treatment made by Intendis. Its main active ingredient is azelaic acid 15%. Officially, finacea “is a topical treatment for the inflammatory bumps and lesions of mild to moderate rosacea”.

Other topical and systemic treatments exist for the papules and pustules of rosacea, so finacea is not your only choice for treating these rosacea symptoms.

A 20% cream formulation of Azelaic Acid (Azelex, Allergan) and (Skinoren, Schering) has been marketed since 1996 for the treatment of acne.

In the last few years several papers have been published comparing finacea to other topicals, and most importanly for us, assessing finacea’s efficacy in treating some rosacea symptoms.

A 2003 article titled A Comparison of 15% Azelaic Acid Gel and 0.75% Metronidazole Gel in the Topical Treatment of Papulopustular Rosacea found that “Azelaic acid gel was superior to metronidazole gel in reduction of mean nominal lesion count and mean percent decrease in inflammatory lesions”. Neither treatment had a clinically appreciable effect on telangiectasia. Benefits from using metronidazole plateauxed after 8 weeks, but continued to be seen by those using azelaic acid.

This study showed azelaic acid was better than metronidazole, even more so than the 1999 study titled A comparison of topical azelaic acid 20% cream and topical metronidazole 0.75% cream in the treatment of patients with papulopustular rosacea. This 1999 study concluded that 20% azelaic acid cream was merely a safe and effective alternative to metronidazole 0.75%.

Another 2003 article titled Efficacy and safety of azelaic acid (15%) gel as a new treatment for papulopustular rosacea: Results from two vehicle-controlled, randomized phase III studies showed that 15% azelaic acid gel was significantly better at reducing papules and pustules than the vehicle gel (i.e. compared to a preparation without the active ingredient).

A followup paper in 2004 titled Azelaic Acid 15% Gel: In the Treatment of Papulopustular Rosacea summarized the 2 cited 2003 papers above. Additionally one can find published papers relating to azelaic acid and the treatment of perioral dermatitis and acne.

With regards to treating the erythema (redness) of rosacea, only erythema in the presence of papules and pustules has been studied. Thus finacea’s affect on transient erythema is unknown.

Finacea is not suitable to those with a sensitivity to propylene glycol. About 20% of various trialists report mild side effects from using finacea, compared to 14% using just the vehicle gel. See the prescribing information for more warnings and safety usage information.

A 2004 paper titled Noxious sensory perceptions in patients with mild to moderate rosacea treated with azelaic acid 15% gel was unable to prove via the lactic acid facial sting test (and others) that azelaic acid caused increases in the senstivity of 40 mild to moderate rosacea sufferers.

A 2005 paper titled Cumulative irritation potential of metronidazole gel compared to azelaic acid gel after repeated applications to healthy skin found that when applied to healthy skin, metronidazole gel was less irritating than azelaic acid.

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What has been your experience with Finacea ? Would you recommend it to other rosacea sufferers ? Feel free to leave a comment below.

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153 Comments over 4 pages ↓


 

 

#26994 pitanjara on March 17, 2009 at 9:50 AM

Azelaic acid with MOISTURISING base (20%) ACNEDERM by Ego Australia, (US$6.27=25g). FINACEA 15% by Schering, (US$17.29=30g). The above available onlie at (chemistwharehouse.com.au). Ordering from here (buying more than one item) should be a lot cheaper even including airfreight. I find that ACNEDERM by Ego much kinder to my skin. Perhaps it is because of the added moisturiser. ?A lot cheaper.pitanjara

#26999 Susan on March 17, 2009 at 5:22 PM

CVS owns Caremark((mail order) so that is really strange that they charge so much when getting it thru a CVS pharmacy.

#27322 Sandy on April 7, 2009 at 11:38 AM

Yes, Finacea in the US is horribly expensive. I complained to my dermatologist about the greasiness of the Metronidazole topical, so she gave me a prescription for Finacea.

The Walgreens pharmacist asked me if I was aware that this would cost $118. And that was under my insurance plan which generally lowers my prescriptions considerably.

So far I’ve noticed that my skin feels softer after one weeks use but I am now having my first nose outbreak in 6 months. : (

#27817 anita on May 9, 2009 at 4:04 AM

finacea 15% made my skin painful, a bright red rash, red hot skin, and spots when i put the cream on for the 1st time. the next morning my skin had spots on it and worse is this normal should i carry on using the cream? metrogel i used before and that seemed to work a little.

#27818 anita on May 9, 2009 at 4:09 AM

would lazer surgery work to take away some blood vessels on my face would it get rid of the redness or do you reckomend anything else

#27819 Susan on May 9, 2009 at 6:14 AM

I had a consultation for laser to get rid of redness and the fourth question they asked was did I have a nickle allergy and I said all my jewelry comes out of a nickle free catalog and my eye glass frames have to be titanium or I break out with blisters. They said the tip of the laser would have to touch my skin and its nickle. They told me to buy make up and ended the interview.

#27822 Lisa on May 10, 2009 at 12:49 AM

I used Finacea after being diagnosed 3 months ago. The results were immediate, my skin was so smooth. I would put my Finacea on at night atleast 30 minutes after washing my face. I loved it! Then, my skin started getting really dry and slightly red. Once in a while it would burn, not too much. I had to go to every other night. Insurance wouldn’t cover it and it cost $150.00. So, after two months of using samples, I received a prescription for Azelex. It is the same azelaic acid, but in a 20% concentration. The cost is much cheaper. The base of the acid is in a cream, not a gel. I do not get the dryness with this product., not stinging, either. I use it every night after washing my face. I use CerVe cleanser for my face morning and night and it has made a world of difference! Another tip, don’t apply anything on your face for atleast 20-30 minutes after washing, your face is very sensitive at that time. I almost can’t believe that my face looks this good, no outbreaks and my bumps are almost gone. I would have loved to continue using Finacea, but I can’t afford it. This Azelex seems to be working well and I don’t have to use moisturizer at night.
Good luck!

#27825 lyubo on May 10, 2009 at 3:07 AM

I’ll give my feedback again – after one month of using Finacea it stopped working so fine as in the beginning.
I’ve changed it with Rosacea Cure which seems to be working better for now.

#28232 TerriLynn on June 4, 2009 at 4:28 AM

I’ve always had a problem with redness on my face and recently it has been constantly red. I’ve tried so many products, expecially natural products.
I went to my Dermotologist and she diagnosed rosacea with some dermatitis. I told her I was trying to get pregnant and she prescribed Finacea.
I’m a bit nervous to try it because I’ve been trying to get pregnant for over a year after having a miscarrage. I’m 41… Everything I’ve read says to avoid unless absolutely neccesary. My face is driving me crazy as it’s red and itchy all the time now… What are your thoughts?
Thank you!

#28267 Lisa on June 7, 2009 at 6:19 AM

Terri:

Hi,

First off, after being diagnosed with Rosacea about 4/5 months ago, one thing I have learned is to be patient. Stop switching and/or changing your skin care routine too often. I was in a panic and tried so many different things that I wasn’t even sure which ones were making my skin worse.
One thing that has really saved my skin was Cerave face cleanser and lotion. I don’t know about using fineacea when you are pregnant. I personally wouldn’t use anything if I was pregnant or trying to get pregnant. Also, things with zinc oxide in them are really healing to the skin. Look for products with minimal additives in them.

good luck
Lisa

#28315 Julia Gonzalez on June 11, 2009 at 1:31 AM

Just started Finacea, wish me luck!!

I really hope it works as i’ve been experiencing redness throughout the face since High School and now i’m 29 and have finally decided to do something about the appearance of my face.

Here’s to progress!

Julia

#28317 TerriLynn on June 11, 2009 at 7:06 AM

Hi Lisa,

Thank you for your advice… the Cerave is great! my skin seems happy again. There is still redness sometimes but not as bad as it was.

Best,
Terri

#28334 irene on June 12, 2009 at 11:27 PM

how long is it safe to use finacea? I was told that because it is an acid, I shouldn’t use it longer than 6 months, because long term use could cause thinning of the skin. I really love it, have great results, and don’t want to stop using it. However, I don’t want to cause thinning of my skin (which will eventually cause ageing) or damage to my skin. Furthermore, as a woman, am i at risk of getting hormonal problems from long term use of finacea? Apparently finacea mutates the testosterone in the body (causing hair growth)…

#28527 Chris on June 25, 2009 at 9:11 PM

Yeah I have the same question as Irene, how long is it safe to use finacea? I ordered mine from Australia instead of paying to see a dermatologist. The packaging says no longer than six months. I also was wandering after I stop using it, when is it safe to start it up again?

#29060 Cache on July 19, 2009 at 8:24 AM

I am an African- American woman who was prescribed finacea to use for steroid induced rosacea (a decade of cortizone 10 use at night). I could not use it at all. It made my symptoms 10x worse! I could not sleep due to the swelling and pain. I only used it for 3 days and it lighten my skin. After having to sit with cold compresses on my face in the area I used finacea overnight, I called the doc. I told her I had to quit. So I’ve been using purpose cleanser and Aveeno ultra calming moisturizer with spf 15. This seems to work okay. I have a 2 week check up this week and have several concerns but my most pressing one is ….

What is a good overnight moisturizer to use? I would like to find one that tones the skin to address the lighten area on my face.

#29064 Artist on July 19, 2009 at 10:10 PM

So sorry your skin reacted like that! Finacea works for me, but there are other medications to try like Elidel, metrogel, antibiotics, and non-prescription options. Have you checked out the online rosacea support groups? http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/rosacea-support/

#29065 Artist on July 19, 2009 at 10:12 PM

…also, my favorite moisturizer for my sensitive rosacea skin is Vanicream Moisturizing Skin Cream. It’s sold at Walgreens and I get the thicker one in the bigger tub, not the “lite” version. Some others that are good for rosacea include Cerave and Cetaphil.

#29578 Loretta on August 8, 2009 at 9:23 PM

I am a 50 year old female who had acne as a teenager and young adult. Finally, about 15 years ago my skin cleared and even the dermatologist commented on how nice my skin was. Then wham mo, Rosacea appeared. We’re not talking the “looks like a sunburn” kind but the “what is wrong with your face!” kind with lots of whiteheads, painful pimples, pustules, etc. I am so disappointed! This all started when my son moved back in after losing his job. He’s a good kid, but I guess the stress of it all was the trigger.

I tried Oracea and a sulfur wash which helped at first but then began to irritate. I discontinued the wash and started using Cetaphil. Some clearing. At my next dr apt. they were surprised that things weren’t improving and switched me to Doryx and Finacea. I haven’t used the Finacea yet but am hopeful. They even did a biopsy to be sure it wasn’t Lupus. It came back that it was Rosacea and Seborrhea. I am not a “pill popper” and hate having to use medications every day, but I also hate the painful, ugly mess on my face. Question….Can you “outgrow” rosacea, or will I be using medication for this in the nursing home?

Hopefully I can report improvement later on. Thanks everyone.

#29767 CG on August 18, 2009 at 4:55 PM

I was diagnosed with Rosacea five years ago after suffering from it for so many years. At that time, I was given antibiotics to reduce inflammation and was put on Metrogel. I had moderate to severe redness but not too many papulus/acne. Metrogel worked for me, most of the redness went away and my skin was so much better. The redness was never completely gone but no more flare ups with just a little redness. In my dictionary, it was a success. Overall, I lived free of rosacea for years (I stopped using metrogel almost two years ago).

Recently I gave birth to my son and perhaps due to hormonal changes, I noticed that I have a lot of bumps that look like acne except you can’t really pop (nothing inside). The bumps are so severe that I went to a dermatologist who prescribed finacea. I have been using it for close to two weeks but haven’t noticed any improvements at all. I feel itching and stinging and my face appears more red. Because of my acne history and rosacea, my skin is already thin as it is. I am concerned that Finacea will make my skin even thinner. SHould I continue with Finacea? how long before I should start seeing improvements?

#29771 lyubobg on August 18, 2009 at 8:45 PM

CG, I saw my improvements in a week

#29870 Marcie on August 27, 2009 at 6:24 AM

CG, I have had rosacea for over 20 years and am using Finacea, which I like. It did sting when I started it and took a few weeks to stop doing that. Now, along with using Cetaphil and a sulfur wash, my redness is reduced, but like you I also have strange little bumps clustered on my cheeks that two dermatologists could not explain! They appeared in the last year, and nothing makes them go away, not even the Finacea. Wish I knew what they were. I intend to keep up with my regimen as I know my rosacea could be much worse.

#29905 Amy on August 29, 2009 at 11:29 AM

HEllo Everyone,

I was giving this for a pigmentation mark? Will it help it or make it more red?? The derm said try this before bleaching cream. I also am having some microderm done. I am very confused on why she would give me this to help a pigmentation…has anyone ever used it for that reason and how long did it take? I also have thin skin..should I seek another opinion I only used it so far 3x.

#29909 Susan on August 29, 2009 at 5:29 PM

I would be very cautious until you find out a good reason for using this for pigmentation. I have used it for burning and itching during a flare up but cannot use it day in and day out as it becomes too irritating. I had a bad experience earlier this year when a dermatologist talked me into a “slush’ treatment which is normally used for acne earlier this year. I do not have acne- jsut severe redness. It damaged my skin. But it was covered by insurance and he wanted the money. As much as you want to trust your doctors you have to be very careful about treatments they want to do.

#29921 Loretta on August 30, 2009 at 11:06 AM

Hi Everyone…thought I’d update on what’s going on with my face. Well, I have switched to Doryx which is 150 mg of timed released doxy. It’s working great! My face is completely clear for the first time since January. I still haven’t used the Finacea because I just havn’t needed it. Thank God! I do, however, have a new development. Looks like I have Ocular Rosacea now. Lots of little “stye” type whiteheads along my upper and lower eyelid on my left eye. I use warm compresses which helps alot but it’s painful and I haven’t been able to wear contacts in a week. Anyone else have this? Best I can figure, it comes and goes. What next? Thanks!

#29928 Susan on August 30, 2009 at 6:52 PM

Last August I developed the first stye I had ever had and went to an eye doctor thinking it was an infection. He told me it was a stye and said to use warm compresses. I had been having sensations of dust in my eyes from time to time but it was so mild I didnt mention it. A month later things got really bad. The dust sensation progressed to feeling I had sand in my eyes and my vision got blurry. I also was getting increasingly red and inflammed on my face and nose. My nose got so sore I couldn’t touch it. At first I thought this was some kind of allergic reaction so I stopped using makeup and cut out everything I could think of. I kep checking drug interactions and googling my symptoms. I finally read on the Mayo clinic’s website that this was all a rosacea occular and facial flareup and it said that blood pressure meds that dialate the blood vessels can cause this!!!! I then realized that the dust sensation and mild flushing which I had erroneously thought to be hot flashes began when I was put on 75 mg of Avapro and the severe symptoms began when the dose was increased to 150 mg. My face looked like a 4 alarm fire. I threw the pills out and the eye symptoms began to rapidly improve in 48 hours. It took 3 months for the face and nose to get over the flare up. I have some permanent enlargement of the nose tissue. I cant blame the doctor who prescribed it as there is no warning in the drug literature which is why it took so long to determine the culprit.

#29940 pitanjara on August 31, 2009 at 10:58 AM

Hi! Susan,
I thought Avapro (irbesartan) was for high blood pressure. Yes it can cause flushing but is meant to lower elevated blood pressure? Guess your taking an alternative?

#29941 Loretta on August 31, 2009 at 11:17 AM

Thanks for responding Susan. I do take blood pressure med (tenorman) but have been taking it for over a year without any flareups. This all started in January 2009 when my son moved back in. The derm doc said he thought that may have been the trigger. I hope it’s not my blood pressure medicine! My eyes have cleared up pretty much. I never had the “sand” feeling just soreness and the styes and itching. I’m gonna try to wear my contacts tomorrow and see how it goes. I HATE ROSACEA!

#29946 Susan on August 31, 2009 at 7:13 PM

I am taking a diruetic now. Anything that lists “may cause erythema” as a possible side effect is a huge red flag for those of us with rosacea.

#30273 CJX on September 26, 2009 at 4:54 AM

I am using finacea for rosacea, and found that an excellent cleanser that reduces redness is Avar Cleanser. The Avar is by far the greatest improvement in my rosacea symptoms.

#30296 Janet on September 27, 2009 at 3:10 AM

Does Axelex cause the skin to thin?

#30391 Julia on October 3, 2009 at 4:24 AM

Has anybody used Oracea? My dermatologist just prescribed me this oral medication because finacea just wasn’t cutting it with my rosacea symptoms. It would be great to hear about experiences with this oral medication (good or bad).

My rosacea can be moderate to intense during certain periods of the year. Still haven’t figured out the pattern.

Thanks,

Julia

#30393 Susan on October 3, 2009 at 5:38 AM

I took it for 2 months. They say it doesnt have any antibiotic acitvity but I still got yeast infections from it just like with regular doxycycline.

#30432 Rebekah Henke on October 5, 2009 at 1:07 PM

For anyone who is interested.. i have used acnederm (20% az.acid) on and off for acne for many years. It is very cheap in Australia ($10). However, it is in a cream base and i have read research that suggests Finacea (15 % az.acid in gel base) is far more effective as a vehicle in delivering the active ingredient into the skin for Rosacea sufferers. Finacea in Australia is ($30 approx). I have had overnight using Finacea to treat my papopustular rosacea (no real flushing) which I have had for the past 5 years (I had been misdiagnosed in the past with perioral derm, kp and just plain old adult acne). I am over the moon at having baby soft skin again and just hope it keeps working as sometimes my skin can become ‘tolerant’ to treatment.

Cheers
Bek

#30437 Lori on October 5, 2009 at 11:52 PM

To Julie, re post 81….I tried Oracea for awhile. It worked great at first with no side effects and then my acne rosacea came back with a vengeance. I am now on Doryx tablets 150 mg (timed release), and my face is completely clear. Guess Oracea works great for some people but unfortuanately I’m not one of them . Hope you are! By the way, if you go to their website you can get a discount card for your perscription. I never paid anything for mine (my insurance paid all but $30 and the card discounted the rest). Good luck!

#30438 Lori on October 5, 2009 at 11:56 PM

Susan…just wanted to let you know that I went to the eye doctor and he said I didn’t have Ocular Rosacea. Yipee! He said it’s just a condition where the oil glands in the eyelids block up and the warm compresses thin out the oil and clear them away. I don’t have any symptoms right now but he said it can come and go.

#30447 Susan on October 6, 2009 at 5:21 AM

Styes, chalzions and blocked membian (SIC?) glands can all be symptoms of occular rosacea. So keep that in mind. If you feel like you have dust or grains of sand in your eyes and/ or get blurry vision then its a flare.

#30451 Lori on October 6, 2009 at 8:48 AM

Yikes! Didn’t know that. Haven’t had any other symptoms though, thank God. I’ll watch for them. Hopefully, this is the extent of it. Way to burst my bubble, Susan. : )

#30501 Sarah on October 8, 2009 at 9:46 AM

I have been using Finacea for a few months now but I know I am missing something in my routine. I bought a Toning Mist from Aveda and a Exfoliant from Aveda. Both stay on my skin, exfoliant at night…tonight mist during the day. Should I put finacea before or after?

#30519 lyubobg on October 9, 2009 at 2:27 AM

A few new thoughts:
1.The finacea gel I’m using has different colors than the one on this page
2.On the eye-drops there is a text saying – don’t use it one month (30 days) after it is first opened. I’ve bought yesterday a new packing of finacea gel and when I started using it, it was a lot more powerful. Just like the eye drops – they don’t function properly after 30 days. This fact is not documented anywhere, but I’m starting to believe in it. The gel is a bit cheap in my country – about 14 USD so I can afford it. It’s not like in the US to cost above 100 USD :X

#30539 Julia on October 9, 2009 at 10:52 PM

Sarah,

I was told by my dermatologist that finacea should be applied to the skin after cleansing and before using a moisturizer. My thoughts are that if both of these products stay on your skin then you should use the fnacea before but i’m not the expert. Also, my doctor advised me as a rosacea patient to steer away from exfoliants but do whatever works best for you since we all react uniquely and experience different symptoms of rosacea.

Julia

#30544 Lori on October 10, 2009 at 3:36 AM

Susan…went to the dermatologist today and he said the eyelid problem is not rosacea. I was glad. I hope I never develop ocular rosacea….it sounds awful. Thanks for all your advise.

#30658 Aimee on October 15, 2009 at 11:02 PM

I have just recently been diagnosed with Rosacea. I was prescribed Finacea 15% gel and have been using it for almost a month now. I saw positive results already within the first week of use. It has virtually stopped papule breakouts and the skin is much calmer. However the skin is still red. I have read on the internet that Rosacea has connection with too low stomach acid and that taking Betaine HCI might help?

#31079 Robin on October 30, 2009 at 3:21 AM

I used Oracea for a couple of months. It didn’t really help and caused some gastro-intestinal problems. I just started with Skinoren (20% azelaic acid) a few days ago, and it has definitely helped (I rarely have pimples but just overall redness/inflamed skin). I used it many years ago for regular acne. It always worked great for a while but the effects seemed to lessen over time. After giving it a break, it would work great again. I suspect this will happen with the rosacea as well. I’ve used the AcneDerm in the past, and it seemed pretty similar to the Skinoren/Azelex to me (though I never compared side-by-side). I’ve purchased mine (both Skinoren and AcneDerm) from the US with no prescription at http://www.4cnrs-skincare.com/. I’ve purchased from them for many years now off and on, and have never had any problems.

#31082 Artist on October 30, 2009 at 4:56 AM

How long were you on the Oracea for?

#31085 pitanjara on October 30, 2009 at 9:24 AM

Hi! Robin,
Curious about AcneDerm availability in the US. ? It is produced by Ego Aust. and I was not aware that it was available there (US).. I find it an excellent product (20% Azeleic Acid) as against 15% in other prducts..If you want your skin to LOOk GOOD they produce another Skin product just called (Skin Cream). There is no indication what is in the cream..Apply it over the top of the AcneDerm after about 10 mins. and it drys to a greasless matt finish. It is very cooling and reduces flushing within minutes. It can be mixed with a foundation cream such as TRUBLEND 3 or similar until you get the required tint. It is a complete finish leaving the skin smooth and white, and it will see you through all day if applied in the morning, and at night if required.. Care has to be taken that any container used to store the mixture is thoroughly sterilised, including your hands etc..All the Best pitanjara

#31090 Robin on October 30, 2009 at 10:26 AM

AcneDerm is not technically available in the US. I purchase it from an overseas company that sells to the US.

As I said about the Oracea, I used it for a couple of months.

#31187 Lori on November 5, 2009 at 1:29 AM

Hello Everyone: Well my doc cut my Doryx in half so the putules etc started back right away. I have begun using the Finacea gel sample they gave me to try and it is making a difference. My breakouts are healing quickly so we’ll see what happens in the long run. I’m supposed to eventually go down to 50 mg of doxy within 3 months. Maybe the combination of Doxy and Finacea will work for me.

#31408 Isabel on November 19, 2009 at 2:24 AM

I have been using Finacea for about 2 months now and seen a huge improvement – no more spots or flaking and a lot less redness too. I’m using it with a mild hydrocortisone cream which I think was to reduce the flaking.
I couldnt tolerate oral antibiotics but a topical treatment is a much better solution.

Could more patients could use Finacea instead of antibiotics if it were better researched/publicised?

The best moisturiser I have used is Double Base which is great and cheap too!

#31427 Julia on November 21, 2009 at 2:03 AM

I went to the dermatologist yesterday because I have some mild hyperpigmentation on my forehead and he prescribed Finacea.

I was shocked to learn it was for Rosacea as he hadn’t mentioned to me that I had Rosacea. I came home and did some research and found that Finacea is also prescribed for hyperpigmentation.

My question is….has anyone successfully treated hyperpigmentation with Finacea? If so, how long did it take for the brown patches to fade? Also, does the hyperpigmentation return when you stop using Finacea?

Thanks so much (in advance!)

#31437 Laurie on November 21, 2009 at 7:21 PM

My new dermatologist diagnosed me with rosacea approximately two months ago. I had always thought I had acne (since I was a teenager – I’m fifty now). My skin was doing okay on an anti-acne regimen (benzaclin and clenia) until about six months ago when I added retin-a and my face went wild — painful, under the skin cysts and pimples. I dropped the retin-a and tried my old program but continued to experience cysts. After that I saw the new derm who put me on Oracea, Metrogel and Finacea. It’s hard for me to really tell how well they are working. I still always seem to have at least one or two large angry pustules going — currently my nose is the hot-spot. It does look very much like the photos on this site. What’s weird is that none of past derms have mentioned rosacea and I do have blackheads. My skin is red but I do not flush easily. How do I know if it’s really rosacea?? Also, the pimples I’ve had over the past few months seem to be leaving red marks that don’t go away (and picking makes it worse, of course). Sorry for the long message, but it’s great to have some place to share this stuff. Thanks.

 

 

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